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“If I had to pick a single brief passage that illustrated all of the fundamental problems in Ayn Rand's epistemology, this is probably the one I'd pick.”
home.neo.rr.com/jsryan/wri...tivity.html
“Objectivism contains several definite errors”
home.sprynet.com/~owl1/rand.htm
“but her epistemology and metaphysics miss much of the point of modern philosophy.”
“nothing can hide the relative shallowness of her knowledge”
www.friesian.com/rand.htm
“Fortunately for Objectivism, these unproven psychological assertions are not fundamental to the philosophy. “
www.jeffcomp.com/faq/wrong.html
home.neo.rr.com/jsryan/wri...tivity.html
“Objectivism contains several definite errors”
home.sprynet.com/~owl1/rand.htm
“but her epistemology and metaphysics miss much of the point of modern philosophy.”
“nothing can hide the relative shallowness of her knowledge”
www.friesian.com/rand.htm
“Fortunately for Objectivism, these unproven psychological assertions are not fundamental to the philosophy. “
www.jeffcomp.com/faq/wrong.html
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Sat, March 25, 2006 - 3:54 PMA "fundamental problem" can be found in any philosophy if you look hard enough, but you first must possess the ignorance to label it a "fundamental problem". The problem with the articles you listed is that they are not fundamental problems at all, but merely interpretations of her work by people who don't like her fundamental principals.
I don't consider myself an "Objectivist", because I will not adhere to what one individual or group decides is correct, nor will I weigh decisions based on them (e.g. what would Jesus do, what would Ayn Rand do, etc). Many critique Judeo-Christian beliefs by citing excerpts that contradict each other. So what? That doesn't mean the Ten Commandments are bogus - seven of them form the basis of all modern justice systems (I don't believe in any higher power/spirit/energy...so you can guess which seven I’m talking about:) ). A few fundamental principals of Ayn Rand's philosophy are:
--That humans beings are born with the capability to do great things. The human mind has endless capability, and that reliance on a higher authority or a supernatural being threatens and obstructs this capability.
--That capitalism is the greatest enabler of all because it is not a system, but simply the result of people left to their own devices.
--That by adhering to a moral and ethical code based on honor, clear thought, and motivation; humans achieve greatness.
I'll be honest; I didn't have the patience to do anything beyond skim over each of those articles. Socialists have always had a difficult time stating their TRUE BELIEFS:
--That government is more capable than individuals. That government has endless capability and that if the interests and production are decided upon by the state, everyone will be better off.
Rand's argument, which I agree with, is that this is an elimination of the most basic freedom: creativity.
---That people are weak and not able minded, so the government should disburse goods and services to ensure everyone makes ends meet, and is happy/healthy/etc.
How long does it take you to research what kind of car to buy? What about buying the car, getting insurance, and getting the oil changed? How about getting that vehicle registered? I'm not suggesting that we should eliminate the Bureau of Motor Vehicles (cut their budget, yes), but it is merely a comparison of a government provided good/service vs. free-market/profit driven good/service.
As far as the "good of the people" more specifically, try comparing the numbers of deaths at the hands of socialism and communism? How about we compare the opportunities for class mobility Western Europe (almost non-existent) vs. Eastern Europe (free market). Unemployment rates and GDP growth in Ireland vs. France.
---That capitalism is the greatest threat to people who are paid by the local, state, and/or federal government to sit around and talk about societal ills, the evil things people did years ago that we are apparently supposed to feel guilty about, and how we all could stand to live a little more meagerly and "give the people at the bottom a chance"
In pure capitalism these people would not exist because university students rarely take these classes unless they have to, and the ones who do take these classes rarely apply any specific skill learned in these classes in any profession outside of becoming a professional guilt inducer. Interestingly the people who do this the most are the ones who do not have to worry about anything in regard to their lifestyle or wealth (most notably Hollywood).
Before you cite specific examples of the failures of capitalism in America, keep in mind that there is no better proven system in the history of man. Like I said above, there are limits to objectivism. There are also limitations to capitalism. But the logical application and understanding of both are very empowering, and have positive impacts on your life (objectivism), and society (capitalism aka letting the capability of men reign supreme).
I'm interested to hear a rebuttal....I’ve yet to hear one from anyone after stating the above. -
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Sat, March 25, 2006 - 8:18 PMAnd socialism fills the gaps left by capitalism.
Radical middle.
Not fanatical limping one leg.
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Sat, April 1, 2006 - 10:25 AMSocialism is the belief that the basic needs of every one in the society are more important than the full and unbridled enjoyment of excess by the few. -
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Tue, April 4, 2006 - 3:31 AMsocialism implies that everyone believes in socialism and that no one is selfish and we are all atruistic....Socialism is other writings usually falls in the realm of utopianism.... quite unrealisitc -
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Tue, April 4, 2006 - 9:09 AMB: socialism implies that everyone believes in socialism and that no one is selfish and we are all atruistic
Where did you get those strange notions? Socialism doesn't care about beliefs. It cares about distrobution of necessities for the common good. It actually assumes people are selfish and/or inefficient at taking care of each other at and individual level and so group organization is needed to make sure every one is taken care of.
It doesn't assume every one is altruistic, but it does assume you are smart enough to see that a strong social context allows the most benefit for every one, rich and poor.
For a comparison consider a more socialist country like Norway vs a less socialist country like Haiti.
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Tue, April 4, 2006 - 7:21 AMThe problem as I see it is that this "every one in society" consists of individuals all with different needs and abilities. In reality there is no "every one". Any system that elevates the needs of the amorphous, ethereal "every one" above that of the individual only succeeds in squashing the individual while at the same time raising up some group claiming to represent the "every one". They cannot in fact represent the individual and in raising up the "every one" as some kind of god they inevitably serve to crush individuality and demand conformity. The "every one", the group is only useful and meaningful in the context of serving the individuals within the group. Socialism tends to put the idea of the group which is in a sense "not real" above the individual which is in every sense "real". -
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Tue, April 4, 2006 - 9:25 AMR: The problem as I see it is that this "every one in society" consists of individuals all with different needs and abilities.
You are setting up a false dilemma. Socialism is not to meet every need, it is to meet the basic needs. If it helps consider that people are an essencial infrastructure for the society. Certain basic needs must be met.
A minimum level of law, food, clothing, health care, education, child care, occupation and entertainment must be met or there are serious problems which degrade the functioning of the society as a whole - crime, disease, insurrection, homelessness, stupid people making poor decisions at the polls, etc.
More than a minimum level creates its own issues, but societies depend on their infrastructure and failing to provide the minimum level of support for any essencial infrastructure be it roads, communications, education, health care, water, waste disposal, ... or people and the society begins to fail.
It is particulaly ironic that in a nation of gross surpluses, where we have to destroy things to keep them from piling up, we are failing to maintain any of our infrastructures.
I think for the most part you are talking about communism's propaganda about itself mixed with our propaganda about it.
For an example of a working socialist country use Norway, though lately the EU and their conservitive wing nuts are messing it up. -
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Wed, April 5, 2006 - 10:11 AM>>>A minimum level of law, food, clothing, health care, education, child care, occupation and entertainment must be met or there are serious problems which degrade the functioning of the society as a whole - crime, disease, insurrection, homelessness, stupid people making poor decisions at the polls, etc. <<<
Swarm:
Would you agree that "law, food, clothing, health care, education, child care, occupation and entertainment" are adjusting and evolving concepts that individuals have vastly different ideals for? -
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Wed, April 5, 2006 - 12:00 PMZ: evolving concepts that individuals have vastly different ideals for?
Hence the use of the term minimum.
I'm not saying you don't have to work for what you want or that you will be ecstatic about the base level subsistence.
But people are the fundimental infrastructure in a country and the better they are, the better the country is.
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Thu, April 6, 2006 - 4:11 PMso you are proposing nationalism? -
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Thu, April 6, 2006 - 8:12 PMWhat does nationalism have to do with it? -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Thu, April 6, 2006 - 8:47 PM>>But people are the fundimental infrastructure in a country and the better they are, the better the country is. <<
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Thu, April 6, 2006 - 8:57 PMyour statements imply a subjection of individual 'expanse' and will, for the greater good of the 'country', nation, society, global economy or 'race'.
this line of thinking is in fundemental oposition to a discovery of true freedom.
In my stance, country, nation, society, and global economy serve the flourishing of individual will. Not the other way around.
And so ideas of 'infastructure', organization, and methods for distribution of resources will naturally form to serve that fundemental nature. Individual consciousness works to organize the world around it to nourish its own growth. Subjecting your growth to the world around you is simply subjecting your will to the will of another.
That is not healthy. It is not ethical to ask of anyone. Nor is it wise in the structuring of a society.
Case in Point: Though declared a fascist state, the Nazi Party was the National Socialist organization. -
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Thu, April 6, 2006 - 9:58 PMz: the Nazi Party was the National Socialist organization
and East Germany was "German Democratic Republic." Big deal. Names are cheap and often misused by toltarian regimes who want to impress people who can read but not think.
z: your statements imply a subjection of individual 'expanse' and will, for the greater good of the 'country', nation, society, global economy or 'race'.
My statements imply no such thing.
z: oposition to a discovery of true freedom.
I don't think you'ld know true freedom if it bit you on the nose.
Z: serve the flourishing of individual will.
<sarcasm>Sure it does.</sarcasm>
Z: And so ideas of 'infastructure', organization, and methods for distribution of resources will naturally form to serve that fundemental nature.
I've made no comments about implimentation. I'm merely noting that a fundimental infrastructure is not being maintained at peak effeciency and that the consequences effect the entire society.
A final bit of history for you. The brown shirts actually did take the socialist bit a wee bit seriously. Not a lot, but enough that Hitler's new conservative capitalist allies had him murder them all in the night of long knives including his up to then closest ally.
True freedom enough for you? -
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Thu, April 6, 2006 - 11:03 PM>>Names are cheap and often misused by toltarian regimes who want to impress people who can read but not think<<
agreed.
>>My statements imply no such thing. <<
individual perspective.
>>I don't think you'ld know true freedom if it bit you on the nose. <<
obviouse individual perspective.
>>merely noting that a fundimental infrastructure is not being maintained at peak effeciency and that the consequences effect the entire society<<
<sarcasm>sounds like a nazi talk </sarcasm>
>>True freedom enough for you?<<
true freedom DOES entail the individual right to despose of their own living existence at the point of THAT INDIVIDUAL's choosing.
final response:
In the end swarm, you didnt respond to my post.
You reacted emotionally to my references. And in this post, I did the same. React.
Aside my show of bullshit, I am asking you: Are we to subject individual freedom, growth and expanse to the subjective ideas of others as to what is Social, Cultural and National 'freedom, growth and expanse'?
In the sentiments of our thread founder, Bo,
Answer THAT, and THEN.... we can have a discussion about what truly is at stake.
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Fri, April 7, 2006 - 8:05 AMZ: true freedom DOES entail the individual right to despose of their own living existence at the point of THAT INDIVIDUAL's choosing.
"Living existemce?" If by that you mean you have a right to choose to kill yourself, I would agree though I fail to see the relevence to the immediate questions.
Z: Are we to subject individual freedom, growth and expanse to the subjective ideas of others as to what is Social, Cultural and National 'freedom, growth and expanse'?
Expanse? Are your borders growing on you?
Personal freedoms exist in a social context. They are not seperable from one another.
Neither is more important then the other. Neither can long survive without the other.
Both are optimized by achieving a harmonious balence. -
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Fri, April 7, 2006 - 11:56 AM>>"Living existence?"<<
I wanst quite sure what you were getting at when you first brought up the subject " that Hitler's new conservative capitalist allies had him murder them all in the night of long knives including his up to then closest ally" - the best I could tell from your language was that you were referencing the Nazi suicides in the Berlin bunker. Other than proof that I was making slight of hand guesses at the conversation - the subject is irrelevant, I think.
>>Expanse? Are your borders growing on you?<<
i see no borders for me. The minute I sense others trying to impose borders on me, be they emotional, intellectual or cultural - I must quickly evaluate to discover what evil is at play (mine or theirs). I stand firm in the conviction that the human individual, to succeed in his or her highest potential must exist in a freedom of unbridadled expanse into the discovery of life. The borders I would allude to, are borders that hinder and restrict such discovery.
They're are worthy borders, often superficial, which I may choose to respect and uphold out of respect and reverence to the sovereignty, growth, and evolution of another individuals or groups there of...
>>Personal freedoms exist in a social context. They are not seperable from one another. <<
agreed.
>>Neither is more important then the other. Neither can long survive without the other.<<<
here we disagree, and this may be the identifying conflict in our perspectives.
As I see it, individual freedoms far out way the social context. That the individual freedoms must be the BASIS for a true, healthy, and sustainable social context. Social context evolves out of mutual and collective agreements of individual wills deciding that they want to exist in a social-model.. and they do so only under conditions that agree with their personal sense of 'yes'.
A society built in reverse asks individuals to reshape their personal and individual will to fit within the social context presented to them. In my mind this would, and does today, render vast resoirs of human potential obsolete in the social context.
Granted such a social model can and does only come into being through the collective choice of individual wills.. ... I see that as inividuals not grasping their inherant nature. Not being at home in the truth of their being, and there for allowing the 'context' of other individuals to suffice as a transplantable context for themselves. Not self-evaluated, not self-discovered, and not self-ratified- Therefore self-negating: leaving behind and laying dormant the true expanse of the individual journey.
>>Both are optimized by achieving a harmonious balance<<
And as you can guess, I would rather say that the social context is optimised by achieving harmonious soveign relations between self-discovering individuals.
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 11:03 AMZ: I wanst quite sure...the subject is irrelevant, I think.
I can only surmise that you have not even a foundational knowledge of the issues of world war II. Without even a cursory understanding of one of the foundational events of the 20th century, how can you hope to understand complex issues such as socialism without any historical context in which to understand them? It is no wonder socialism, fascism, and communism all seem to blend together for you.
Hitler used socialism as a pretext to gain power. As soon as it no longer served him, he slaughtered his own followers with the same disreguard he showed the Jews. This occurred before the war while he was courting conservative capitalists for their financial backing and scapegoating communists for the ills of Germany at the time.
Z: i see no borders for me.
Then you are not looking very closely.
Z: As I see it, individual freedoms far out way the social context.
You might as well say heads far out weighs needing to decide in tossing a coin.
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 3:03 PMwahooo! well, swarm! aren't you the logimaniac!
>>I can only surmise<<
Very well said, I appreciate the humility.
>>how can you hope to understand complex issues such as socialism without any historical context<<?
better yet, how can YOU hope to have any close-to-actuality context of any historical situation. All reality exterior to yourself is reduced to myth. Propoganda and hear-say. To base my thoughts and constitutions from percieved historical reality would be equal to gaining my understanding of the universe from the evening news. Surely a progressive intellectual such as yourself can find SOME agreement there...
>>It is no wonder socialism, fascism, and communism all seem to blend together for you. <<<
well... they do blend together.. very nicely .. I'll be cliche : they all end in the root stank of 'ism' - just like objectiv'ism' - concepts defined exterior to myself who's proponants would ask me to assume as a fashionable mental model to organize my thoughts within. not interested. thanks for asking though.
>>Hitler used socialism as a pretext to gain power.<<
see.. now I can tell you're not actually trying to understand what Ive been working to communicate to you. You using up all your mental power to defeat the very existence of my statement instead of working to hear what Im trying to offer..
If you build a social model in which the individuals are asked to subjegate their personal wills for the collective whole, you consolidate thinking and decision making power.. history aside, its just organizational dynamics, at that point that consolidated resovoir of power can be used to ANY ends.. its a dangerous device to create. Im not interested in the project. Im into diversification of culture, thought, power, resources, etc.. it is a principle of nature, and that's not a historical reference. Its a truth self-evident.
>>You might as well say heads far out weighs needing to decide in tossing a coin.<<
you lost me on the analogy. I dont flip coins to make decisions. .. if I did, it would be as a tool to reveal to me through opposition what it was I really wanted in a situation.
to sum up, once again, you are uninterested in actual discussion. History is irrelevant. What is relevant is the truths of reality and how it works. to be cheeky - if history is your base, your chasing shadows on the wall. Not the truth of your own knowledge, at that point you become a very dangerous tool of the Hitler's, Historians, and Censors..
I can only surmise that you have not even a foundational knowledge of who you actually are.
(I know, its harsh, but since you turned it into a cock fight, Im gonna go for the points - shall we flip a coin to see who goes next?)
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 5:26 PMZ: All reality exterior to...
Wonderful excuse for prizing ignorance there.
I'm sorry but there's really nothing novel or interesting to what you are saying.
And since I'm just a myth... -
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 9:22 PMdo people in intimite relations with you complain about your listening skills? -
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Mon, April 10, 2006 - 9:26 PMor intimate, either way... -
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Unsu...
Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Wed, May 3, 2006 - 12:44 PMI have a few questions for Swarm:
Who gets to decide what is best for the whole of society? I notice you make references to the less intelligent at the polls. Does this mean that there is an IQ test to see who gets to vote? Who gets to write the test?
What is valuable to you? Is it the same as what I value? Capitalism is the free exercise of trade & commerce between individual entities (be they persons or corporations) for mutual benefit. If I have a tone of widgets for which I have no use, but that you do; would I be allowed to sell them to you for a price upon which we have mutually agreed, or would someone else set the price?
The failure of communism is evident in the fall of the Soviet Union, who seemed to be able to make 1st rate weapons while supplying only the most basic of necessities. As you say, the state should supply the minimum of needs, but what incentive do I have if I don't get to reap the benefits of my labors. I work hard and my neighbor is a slacker, but we both get to eat filet mignon? Why should I not then become a slacker since it doesn't matter what I do, I still get the prime beef? The Pilgrims that came to the New World tried a socialist system whereupon all would place the fruits of their work in common storage for the mutual benefit of all. A vast number of them starved. Only when they allowed for personal incentive - for the most productive to keep what they produced did the settlement thrive. That is what led to the first Thanksgiving (that Americans celebrate in November).
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Mon, January 22, 2007 - 6:29 AM>>"I'm interested to hear a rebuttal....I’ve yet to hear one from anyone after stating the above."<<
No rebuttal here. I pretty much agree with everything you have to say and it is well said!
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Re: Fundamental problems with Rand's ideas
Sat, January 20, 2007 - 10:32 PMChildren
Up until now, I haven't seen a coherent and logical rebuttal to the errors of objectivism voiced by rational people who actually do the hard work of thinking.
If there is so much doubts in your beloved philosophy, surely you must suspend your belief in it for a moment? This is the discipline of rational thinking.